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Evan Gatehouse

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Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 73



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 3:02 am
Post subject: extending rigging wires
Archived from groups: rec>boats>building (more info?)

Folks,

First a bit of background. I'm considering buying a 40' cruising catamaran.
It's an "open bridgedeck" design - without a bridgedeck cabin. I want a
bridgedeck cabin so I'd have to build the cabin.

To make the cabin fit I'd have to raise the boom. I have 2 solutions - just
reweld the gooseneck on 2' higher, and trim the bottom of the mainsail.
This looses me sail area which I am loath to do.

The other solution is to raise the mast 2' (which is easy to do 'cause it's
just stepped on a deck beam). But then all the rigging wires become too
short. So I'm looking for ideas to extend rigging wires. So far I have:

- replace most of the wires (7 at least would have to be done, not a cheap
proposition)
- short lengths of rigging wire with swaged fittings at each end -
reasonably cheap but lots more potential failure points
- short lengths of multiple passes of spectra or similar high modulus line -
probably cheapest and lightest, need some custom solid aluminum thimbles to
handle the lines

I'd appreciate any opinions. Thanks,

--
Evan Gatehouse

you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me
ceilydh AT 3web dot net
(fools the spammers)

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Glenn Ashmore3

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Since: Sep 04, 2003
Posts: 176



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 10:31 am
Post subject: Re: extending rigging wires [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Evan,

Synthetic rigging seems to be big with multihulls these days. Precourt
in Canada <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.precourt.ca/" target="_blank">http://www.precourt.ca/</a> makes deadeyes up to 30,000 lb. just
for that purpose machined as chainplates, middle eyes and top thimbles.
You could use the top thimble with a shackle to make the transistion
to wire.

You might even consider replacing all the rigging with Amsteel Blue. It
works out a lot cheaper than wire and seems to be gaining a lot of
acceptance with the high performance cat sailors. It is a little
stronger than the same size wire and if the loads stay under 30% there
is very little creep once the initial stretch is removed.

What I want to know is how do you intend to raise the mast off that deck
beam and what will it do to the RM? You are increasing the lever arm of
the center of force and putting it up higher into stronger wind. That
in combination with reducing the angle of the stays will increase the
load on the stays. But maybe the wide base of a cat will minimize that.

Evan Gatehouse wrote:
 > Folks,
 >
 > First a bit of background. I'm considering buying a 40' cruising catamaran.
 > It's an "open bridgedeck" design - without a bridgedeck cabin. I want a
 > bridgedeck cabin so I'd have to build the cabin.
 >
 > To make the cabin fit I'd have to raise the boom. I have 2 solutions - just
 > reweld the gooseneck on 2' higher, and trim the bottom of the mainsail.
 > This looses me sail area which I am loath to do.
 >
 > The other solution is to raise the mast 2' (which is easy to do 'cause it's
 > just stepped on a deck beam). But then all the rigging wires become too
 > short. So I'm looking for ideas to extend rigging wires. So far I have:
 >
 > - replace most of the wires (7 at least would have to be done, not a cheap
 > proposition)
 > - short lengths of rigging wire with swaged fittings at each end -
 > reasonably cheap but lots more potential failure points
 > - short lengths of multiple passes of spectra or similar high modulus line -
 > probably cheapest and lightest, need some custom solid aluminum thimbles to
 > handle the lines
 >
 > I'd appreciate any opinions. Thanks,
 >
 > --
 > Evan Gatehouse
 >
 > you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me
 > ceilydh AT 3web dot net
 > (fools the spammers)
 >
 >


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.rutuonline.com" target="_blank">http://www.rutuonline.com</a>
Shameless Commercial Division: <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.spade-anchor-us.com" target="_blank">http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</a>

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Robert Larder

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Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 20



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 1:17 pm
Post subject: Re: extending rigging wires [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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If I was doing this for myself, I`d probably take a piece of stainless round
bar of a <suitable> diameter and machine the ends to suit the chain plate at
the bottom and the bottom of the rigging screw at the top. Dunno how this
would work on the forestay though- roller furling? Maybe best to replace the
forestay only?
Bob
Evan Gatehouse wrote:
:: Folks,
::
:: First a bit of background. I'm considering buying a 40' cruising
:: catamaran. It's an "open bridgedeck" design - without a bridgedeck
:: cabin. I want a bridgedeck cabin so I'd have to build the cabin.
::
:: To make the cabin fit I'd have to raise the boom. I have 2
:: solutions - just reweld the gooseneck on 2' higher, and trim the
:: bottom of the mainsail. This looses me sail area which I am loath to
:: do.
::
:: The other solution is to raise the mast 2' (which is easy to do
:: 'cause it's just stepped on a deck beam). But then all the rigging
:: wires become too short. So I'm looking for ideas to extend rigging
:: wires. So far I have:
::
:: - replace most of the wires (7 at least would have to be done, not a
:: cheap proposition)
:: - short lengths of rigging wire with swaged fittings at each end -
:: reasonably cheap but lots more potential failure points
:: - short lengths of multiple passes of spectra or similar high
:: modulus line - probably cheapest and lightest, need some custom
:: solid aluminum thimbles to handle the lines
::
:: I'd appreciate any opinions. Thanks,
::
:: --
:: Evan Gatehouse
::
:: you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me
:: ceilydh AT 3web dot net
:: (fools the spammers)
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Jim Conlin1

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Since: Sep 23, 2003
Posts: 193



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 5:47 pm
Post subject: Re: extending rigging wires [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Glenn Ashmore wrote:

 > <SNIP>
 > What I want to know is how do you intend to raise the mast off that deck
 > beam and what will it do to the RM? You are increasing the lever arm of
 > the center of force and putting it up higher into stronger wind. That
 > in combination with reducing the angle of the stays will increase the
 > load on the stays. But maybe the wide base of a cat will minimize that.
 >

The added accommodation will substantially increase the weight of the boat,
increasing the righting moment. Is the existing standing rigging up to the
increased loads?
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freddy

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Since: Oct 04, 2003
Posts: 1



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 5:47 pm
Post subject: Re: extending rigging wires [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Go back to the designer and ask the proper questions - there's lots of
aspects to this question besides rigging. What do you think you're
gonna get here - design genius - from people who put 14 tanks on their
boats? Multihulls have to be kept light.


On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:47:14 GMT, Jim Conlin
wrote:

 >
 >
 >Glenn Ashmore wrote:
 >
  >> <SNIP>
  >> What I want to know is how do you intend to raise the mast off that deck
  >> beam and what will it do to the RM? You are increasing the lever arm of
  >> the center of force and putting it up higher into stronger wind. That
  >> in combination with reducing the angle of the stays will increase the
  >> load on the stays. But maybe the wide base of a cat will minimize that.
  >>
 >
 >The added accommodation will substantially increase the weight of the boat,
 >increasing the righting moment. Is the existing standing rigging up to the
 >increased loads?
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Glenn Ashmore3

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Since: Sep 04, 2003
Posts: 176



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 6:23 pm
Post subject: Re: extending rigging wires [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I believe you will find that Evan has worked for some of the biggest
name yacht designers in the business so I expect he already has that
figured out. He is just using the group as a sounding board the same
way I often do.

freddy wrote:
 > Go back to the designer and ask the proper questions - there's lots of
 > aspects to this question besides rigging. What do you think you're
 > gonna get here - design genius - from people who put 14 tanks on their
 > boats? Multihulls have to be kept light.
 >
 >

 > wrote:
 >
 >
  >>
  >>Glenn Ashmore wrote:
  >>
  >>
   >>><SNIP>
   >>>What I want to know is how do you intend to raise the mast off that deck
   >>>beam and what will it do to the RM? You are increasing the lever arm of
   >>>the center of force and putting it up higher into stronger wind. That
   >>>in combination with reducing the angle of the stays will increase the
   >>>load on the stays. But maybe the wide base of a cat will minimize that.
   >>>
  >>
  >>The added accommodation will substantially increase the weight of the boat,
  >>increasing the righting moment. Is the existing standing rigging up to the
  >>increased loads?
 >
 >
 >


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.rutuonline.com" target="_blank">http://www.rutuonline.com</a>
Shameless Commercial Division: <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.spade-anchor-us.com" target="_blank">http://www.spade-anchor-us.com</a>
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Stephen Baker

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Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 318



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 9:12 pm
Post subject: Re: extending rigging wires [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Freddy says:

 >Go back to the designer and ask the proper questions - there's lots of
 >aspects to this question besides rigging.

True. And the designer will say "Replace the rigging with longer stuff".



 >What do you think you're
 >gonna get here - design genius

That hurts.....

 > from people who put 14 tanks on their
 >boats?

So will that.

 >Multihulls have to be kept light.

I'm not sure that "have" is the right word there. "Should" would be better,
and even then some would disagree. It all depends on why you want a cat, and
what it was designed for.

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
<a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/private/scbweb/home.htm" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/private/scbweb/home.htm</a>
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Ford and Mary Ann

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Since: Aug 09, 2003
Posts: 7



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 10:19 pm
Post subject: Re: extending rigging wires [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Evan,

"Lanyards and deadeyes" or solid metal extensions should work, but you
could also cut 2 feet off of the top of the sail and add a short gaff or
a really substantial headboard.

Good luck,
Ford Walton



Evan Gatehouse wrote:
 >
 > Folks,
 >
 > First a bit of background. I'm considering buying a 40' cruising catamaran.
 > It's an "open bridgedeck" design - without a bridgedeck cabin. I want a
 > bridgedeck cabin so I'd have to build the cabin.
 >
 > To make the cabin fit I'd have to raise the boom. I have 2 solutions - just
 > reweld the gooseneck on 2' higher, and trim the bottom of the mainsail.
 > This looses me sail area which I am loath to do.
 >
 > The other solution is to raise the mast 2' (which is easy to do 'cause it's
 > just stepped on a deck beam). But then all the rigging wires become too
 > short. So I'm looking for ideas to extend rigging wires. So far I have:
 >
 > - replace most of the wires (7 at least would have to be done, not a cheap
 > proposition)
 > - short lengths of rigging wire with swaged fittings at each end -
 > reasonably cheap but lots more potential failure points
 > - short lengths of multiple passes of spectra or similar high modulus line -
 > probably cheapest and lightest, need some custom solid aluminum thimbles to
 > handle the lines
 >
 > I'd appreciate any opinions. Thanks,
 >
 > --
 > Evan Gatehouse
 >
 > you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me
 > ceilydh AT 3web dot net
 > (fools the spammers)
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Jim Woodward

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Since: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 63



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 10:41 am
Post subject: Re: extending rigging wires [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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You've gotten most, but not all of the following in the previous
comments:

1) Raising the sails increases the moment arm, which increases shroud
loads.

2) Adding weight increases the righting moment which increases shroud
loads.

3) Adding weight is to be avoided in a cat. This sounds like a major
increase.

4) Increasing the mast height reduces the shroud angle for the lowers,
thereby increasing loading on the lowers.

5) Reducing the shroud angle will require bending or replacing the
lower chainplates to match the new angle. Don't ignore this. (The
headstay and backstay have the same problem, but it's over at least
double the distance, so a toggle may be enough).

All of which suggest some careful analysis and, perhaps, bigger
shrouds.

Assuming you've done that analysis, and have determined that the
present wire sizes are still satisfactory, then I would:

1) Consider the age of the existing rigging, (I'm guessing this is a
used boat), and its remaining useful life. A complete replacement may
be in order soon anyway.

2) Consider cutting the long pieces of the existing rigging for use in
the shorter places, replacing only the longest pieces of wire, and
putting new terminations on the cut ends.

3) Look around for a used longer mast and buying its rigging or the
whole thing.

4) If you decide to piece out the rig with new two foot lengths, use
Norseman or StaLok rather than swaged fittings. A lot more money than
swaged, but a lot better quality. Then, some day down the road, you
can buy new wire and replace the two foot pieces with full length
pieces, reusing the fittings.

5) Easiest, and cheapest, would be to make extenders out of solid
stainless. Bob suggested round stock. He may have had the following
in mind, but I'll flesh it out a little. Get a second turnbuckle of
the same size as each existing one and approximately 24" long threaded
rod to match. Drill the ends of the rod for cotter pins. Take the
right hand thread end out of the existing and new turnbuckles and
thread them on the rod. Presto, you have a super-turnbuckle that will
span the gap. Get rolled threads on the rod -- if you buy the rod,
this will be almost automatic, but don't cut the threads with a die or
on a lathe. Use 316 -- it's not quite as strong as 303/304, but
corrosion is an issue here.

6) If you decide on the second solution, "just reweld the gooseneck 2'
higher", consult with the mast manufacturer. Many masts are made from
heat treated alloys that shouldn't be welded after heat treat and
there may be reinforcement inside the mast at the existing gooseneck.

Jim Woodward
<a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.mvFintry.com" target="_blank">www.mvFintry.com</a>

"Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message ...
 > Folks,
 >
 > First a bit of background. I'm considering buying a 40' cruising catamaran.
 > It's an "open bridgedeck" design - without a bridgedeck cabin. I want a
 > bridgedeck cabin so I'd have to build the cabin.
 >
 > To make the cabin fit I'd have to raise the boom. I have 2 solutions - just
 > reweld the gooseneck on 2' higher, and trim the bottom of the mainsail.
 > This looses me sail area which I am loath to do.
 >
 > The other solution is to raise the mast 2' (which is easy to do 'cause it's
 > just stepped on a deck beam). But then all the rigging wires become too
 > short. So I'm looking for ideas to extend rigging wires. So far I have:
 >
 > - replace most of the wires (7 at least would have to be done, not a cheap
 > proposition)
 > - short lengths of rigging wire with swaged fittings at each end -
 > reasonably cheap but lots more potential failure points
 > - short lengths of multiple passes of spectra or similar high modulus line -
 > probably cheapest and lightest, need some custom solid aluminum thimbles to
 > handle the lines
 >
 > I'd appreciate any opinions. Thanks,
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Old Nick1

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Since: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 62



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 4:30 pm
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On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:47:14 GMT, Jim Conlin
wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:

 >The added accommodation will substantially increase the weight of the boat,
 >increasing the righting moment. Is the existing standing rigging up to the
 >increased loads?

If the guy intends to overcome the righting monent of a 40' cruising
catamaran while sailing, then the occasional broken stay will be a
minor excitement! <G>

******************************************************************************************
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.
The rest sit around and make snide comments.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music
Please remove ns from my header address to reply via email
!!
<")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/
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Brian Whatcott

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Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 434



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 5:21 pm
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On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:23:48 -0400, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

 >I believe you will find that Evan has worked for some of the biggest
 >name yacht designers in the business so I expect he already has that
 >figured out. He is just using the group as a sounding board the same
 >way I often do.
 >
 >freddy wrote:
  >> Go back to the designer and ask the proper questions - there's lots of
  >> aspects to this question besides rigging.....

The responses I have seen to Freddy's suggestion seem altogether
collected. Perhaps better to remember that this anonymous poster
also recommended arson as the winterizing recipe for a personal
water vehicle, in order to help you summon the replies he deserves.

Brian (certified genius) Whatcott
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Stephen Baker

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Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 318



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 6:34 pm
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Brian says:

 >Perhaps better to remember that this anonymous poster
 >also recommended arson as the winterizing recipe for a personal
 >water vehicle, in order to help you summon the replies he deserves.

Can you think of a better recipe? ;-P

 >Brian (certified genius) Whatcott

Is that "I'm certified AS a genius", or "I'm a genius and Certified?..."

Steve
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Evan Gatehouse

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Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 73



(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 10:04 pm
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"Glenn Ashmore" wrote

 > Synthetic rigging seems to be big with multihulls these days. Precourt
 > in Canada <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.precourt.ca/" target="_blank">http://www.precourt.ca/</a> makes deadeyes up to 30,000 lb. just
 > for that purpose machined as chainplates, middle eyes and top thimbles.

yeah, that's the lanyard/deadeye's I would use. The stretch on short
lengths would be o.k.

 > You might even consider replacing all the rigging with Amsteel Blue. It

Yeah, but Eric Precourt doesn't recommend using it with fixed rigs (which
this boat has). Too much stretch compared to wire; it's o.k. with 3 stay
cat rigs where the mast rotates and you want a little slack.

 > What I want to know is how do you intend to raise the mast off that deck
 > beam and what will it do to the RM? You are increasing the lever arm of
 > the center of force and putting it up higher into stronger wind. That
 > in combination with reducing the angle of the stays will increase the
 > load on the stays. But maybe the wide base of a cat will minimize that.

Well I'm only raising it 2' - I'd certainly do the calcs but as a percentage
it isn't much. Extending it would be as simple as a little 2' aluminum pipe
compression post with welded flanges on either end.

Jim Conlin wrote:
 > The added accommodation will substantially increase the weight of the
boat,
 > increasing the righting moment. Is the existing standing rigging up to
the
 > increased loads?

Yes, it would increase the RM - but the overall boat + payload weight is
still within the designer's maximum number.

freddy said:

 > Go back to the designer and ask the proper questions - there's lots of
 > aspects to this question besides rigging.

True - but I'm pretty capable of handling those Smile, it was just this
particular aspect that was something I didn't have experience with.

Ford Walton wrote:

 > Lanyards and deadeyes" or solid metal extensions should work, but you
 > could also cut 2 feet off of the top of the sail and add a short gaff or
 > a really substantial headboard.

I did think of just chopping 2' off the head of the sail after raising the
boom (but I want to preserve sail area).

Jim Woodward had a lot of good points especially the super turbuckle but
I'll address this one:

 >6) If you decide on the second solution, "just reweld the gooseneck 2'
 > higher", consult with the mast manufacturer. Many masts are made from
 > heat treated alloys that shouldn't be welded after heat treat and
 > there may be reinforcement inside the mast at the existing gooseneck.

Almost all masts are 6061-T6 which is a heat treated alloy that loses
strength after welding - but the existing gooseneck flanges are welded on
and seem o.k. - so another weak area 2' higher probably isn't going to
cause too much trouble. I will look into a drilled/tapped/bolted fitting.
Has anybody ever seen a reinforcement inside the mast at a gooseneck? I've
looked up a lot of mast tubes and seen a lot of mast drawings and never seen
one on an aluminum mast.

Once again thanks for all the constructive thoughts. They are apprecicated.


--
Evan Gatehouse

you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me
ceilydh AT 3web dot net
(fools the spammers)
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Bryan B

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Since: Aug 05, 2003
Posts: 15



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 5:40 pm
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 >I will look into a drilled/tapped/bolted fitting.
If you go this route you may want to also epoxy your gooseneck in place.
It helps with corrosion and provides strength.


 >Has anybody ever seen a reinforcement inside the mast at a gooseneck?
No, I have only seen boom vang locations and shroud locations reinforced
but I'm sure haven't seen it all.


"Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message

 >

 >
  > > Synthetic rigging seems to be big with multihulls these days. Precourt
  > > in Canada <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.precourt.ca/" target="_blank">http://www.precourt.ca/</a> makes deadeyes up to 30,000 lb. just
  > > for that purpose machined as chainplates, middle eyes and top thimbles.
 >
 > yeah, that's the lanyard/deadeye's I would use. The stretch on short
 > lengths would be o.k.
 >
  > > You might even consider replacing all the rigging with Amsteel Blue. It
 >
 > Yeah, but Eric Precourt doesn't recommend using it with fixed rigs (which
 > this boat has). Too much stretch compared to wire; it's o.k. with 3 stay
 > cat rigs where the mast rotates and you want a little slack.
 >
  > > What I want to know is how do you intend to raise the mast off that deck
  > > beam and what will it do to the RM? You are increasing the lever arm of
  > > the center of force and putting it up higher into stronger wind. That
  > > in combination with reducing the angle of the stays will increase the
  > > load on the stays. But maybe the wide base of a cat will minimize that.
 >
 > Well I'm only raising it 2' - I'd certainly do the calcs but as a
percentage
 > it isn't much. Extending it would be as simple as a little 2' aluminum
pipe
 > compression post with welded flanges on either end.
 >
 > Jim Conlin wrote:
  > > The added accommodation will substantially increase the weight of the
 > boat,
  > > increasing the righting moment. Is the existing standing rigging up to
 > the
  > > increased loads?
 >
 > Yes, it would increase the RM - but the overall boat + payload weight is
 > still within the designer's maximum number.
 >
 > freddy said:
 >
  > > Go back to the designer and ask the proper questions - there's lots of
  > > aspects to this question besides rigging.
 >
 > True - but I'm pretty capable of handling those Smile, it was just this
 > particular aspect that was something I didn't have experience with.
 >
 > Ford Walton wrote:
 >
  > > Lanyards and deadeyes" or solid metal extensions should work, but you
  > > could also cut 2 feet off of the top of the sail and add a short gaff or
  > > a really substantial headboard.
 >
 > I did think of just chopping 2' off the head of the sail after raising the
 > boom (but I want to preserve sail area).
 >
 > Jim Woodward had a lot of good points especially the super turbuckle but
 > I'll address this one:
 >
  > >6) If you decide on the second solution, "just reweld the gooseneck 2'
  > > higher", consult with the mast manufacturer. Many masts are made from
  > > heat treated alloys that shouldn't be welded after heat treat and
  > > there may be reinforcement inside the mast at the existing gooseneck.
 >
 > Almost all masts are 6061-T6 which is a heat treated alloy that loses
 > strength after welding - but the existing gooseneck flanges are welded on
 > and seem o.k. - so another weak area 2' higher probably isn't going to
 > cause too much trouble. I will look into a drilled/tapped/bolted fitting.
 > Has anybody ever seen a reinforcement inside the mast at a gooseneck?
I've
 > looked up a lot of mast tubes and seen a lot of mast drawings and never
seen
 > one on an aluminum mast.
 >
 > Once again thanks for all the constructive thoughts. They are
apprecicated.
 >
 >
 > --
 > Evan Gatehouse
 >
 > you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me
 > ceilydh AT 3web dot net
 > (fools the spammers)
 >
 >
 >> Stay informed about: extending rigging wires 
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